Is it necessary to follow any Jamaat? If yes then which Jamaat do you follow?

51 responses to “Is it necessary to follow any Jamaat? If yes then which Jamaat do you follow?”

  1. Badar Maqsood says :

    I think this is the Jammat that is mentioned in the Ahaadith. Now the question is if the currents named Jammats as “Jamat-ulu-Muslimeen” are the ones to join or not but as Hadith says I think I will join it.

    • ahlulhadees says :

      Brother, cn you please tell us about those ahadeeths in which current jamatul muslimeen (registered) is mentioned ?
      jazak’Allah khair

      • badarmaqsood says :

        Assalam-o-Alaikum,

        Have i said that it is the one? In fact I have questioned all the Jammats that are out there and named as Jamat-ul-Muslimeen.

        Secondly May I know why have you mentioned “registered”?

        Regards,

    • ahlulhadees says :

      Walikum Asalam wrwb,
      Bhai jaan your comments were confusing , because if you are not sure and have raised the question then what does this means? “not but as Hadith says I think I will join it”
      when you are not sure if any of these jamaats are one of them then what will you join?

      secondly, registered means registered, as current jamatul muslimeen is a registered party so nobody else (not related to this jamaat) can use this name.

      • badarmaqsood says :

        Assalam-o-Alaikum,

        You misunderstood my comment. I said two things.

        1. This (Jamat-ul-Muslimeen) is the Jammat that is mentioned in Ahaadees so I will join it.
        2. We need to see if the currently named and acclaimed Jamats are Jamat-ul-Muslimeen or not.

        So if any of them fulfills the attributes then I will join that particular Jammat (Jamat-ul-Muslimeen). So evaluation is required but as per point # 1 the Jammat will be Jamat-ul-Muslimeen.

  2. ahlulhadees says :

    Walikum Asalam wrwb,
    Jazak’Allah khair for the clerification, do you mind to explain what meaning do you take from the word Jamaat ul Muslimeen mentioned in the ahadeeth?

  3. Badar Maqsood says :

    Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    What ever is mentioned in Quran and Ahaadees we ought to follow it. As the name mentioned for Jammat is this so it has to be. Same goes for the names that are used for the Ummah i.e. Muslimeen, Ibaadullah, Momeneen etc

    • ahlulhadees says :

      jazak’Allah khair, now to make it more clear, this meaning you took from Qran o Ahadeeth is based upon ur own understanding? someone else understanding? or salaf & muhaditheen understanding? or … whos understanding is this ?

  4. Badar Maqsood says :

    Assalam-o-Alaikum,
    😛 Seems you are not in office. Well my understanding is nothing. It has to be from Nabi Kareem, Sahaba, Muhaditheen or Salaf. Is it clear now :p

    • ahlulhadees says :

      🙂 ofcourse its clear now but another problem, increase our knowledge by giving some references from aslaaf who have mentioned this understanding ???🙂

  5. Badar Maqsood says :

    For what do you need reference? That we need to join Jammat-ul-Muslimeen? Or that Jamat-ul-Muslimeen is the only Jamat?

  6. ahlulhadees says :

    this one that the jamat that will b on haq will be named as jamatul muslimeen

  7. Badar Maqsood says :

    It is mentioned in Ahaadees but as you are talking about Salaf I can share one. I dont know how to include a snapshot in comment :s so writing it

    Hafiz Ibn-e-Hajr says

    Wal Murado Bil Jamat Jamat-ul-Muslimeen

    The term Jamat refers to Jamat-ul-Muslimeen

    (Fatah-ul-Bari 15/221)

    There are lots of others.

    • ahlulhadees says :

      bhai hafiz ibn e hajar rahimaullah ki bat pur e siaq o sabaaq k sath paish karien just few words doest make it clear, so complete context is needed, because as per my knowledge what i have read hafiz ibn e hajar has mentioned totally different viiew.

  8. Badar Maqsood says :

    Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    Ok. He is referring to the term Jamat and saying that Jamat refers to Jamat-ul-Muslimeen. What other context is required? Jamat is clearly distinguished in Ahaadees from other Sects and Hafiz sahab is saying that this word “Jamat” refers to Jamat-ul-Muslimeen.

    Can you please share the details that you have read about him?

    • ahlulhadees says :

      walikum asalam wa rehmatullah,
      context means what is written before and after the given reference? for example if some one says Quran says dont go near to salaah, (la takrabusalaah) then we will ask to read the full context.

      secondly in fathul bari jild 13 page 35 ibne hajar explains jamatul muslimeen means khilafaah and imaam means khalifa

  9. Badar Maqsood says :

    Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    If Jammat is only for Khilafah then Hadees says A Jamat will always be there. How do you reconcile that?

  10. ahlulhadees says :

    walikum asalam wrwb,
    in’sha’Allah i will explain with the fehm of salaf what does that means, first the conflict point is what does jamatul muslimeen means because so far brother you are taking jamatul muslimeen mentioned in ahadees as a sect/group named as jamatul muslimeen and i have asked prove from our islaaf who took jamatul muslimeen as a group labled as jamatul muslimeen. once its sorted what exectly salaf understood from jamatul muslimeen then the rest we will discuss inshallah otherwise f i answer now we will again come back to same point that what does jamatul muslimeen really means🙂

  11. Badar Maqsood says :

    Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    The point is Hadees says to stick to Jamat-ul-Muslimeen and mentions it by name. I gave you the reference as well. What I understand is that the word Ameer and Jammat are used interchanbly for Ameer and Khalifah AND Jammat and Khilafat.

    You are saying that the Hadees does not mean that. So please elaborate what it means? Also does “bari jild 13 page 35” say that it can not be an Ameer without Khilafat?

    • ahlulhadees says :

      you havent mentioned the khilafah and khalifa before you just have mentioned it now anyhow
      question is still there , the meaning you are taking out of it nterchangeable meaning from islaaf who took this understanding u have mentioned one reference so far, although i have asked for full context which hasn’t been provided yet, lets for the sake of arguments ibn e hajar said it is jamatul muslimeen but he also mentions that jamatul muslimeen means khilafah not a sect labled as jamatul muslimeen?

      stick to jamatul muslimeen means what ibn e hajjar has explained
      ok let say it is not mentioned there that there can not be an ameer without khilafah , what you want to prove from this?🙂 because if you say it is possible then my qestion will be same again from islaaf who took this understanding?🙂

      wesey ye understanding/confusions aap ki apni hain ya kisi aur ki daali hoie wesey kuch to hai jis ki pardadari hai😛

  12. Badar Maqsood says :

    Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    Where did I deny that it is not related to Khalifah or Khilafat and is only related to Ameer and Jamat?

    The meaning is not by me but by the Hadees (if I remember correctly it is Mustadrak Hakim) that mentions 73 sects and says 1 is Jamat. Then where ever Jamat is mentioned it is mentioned as Jamat-ul-Muslimeen.

    As for the context, I dont have the book with me. I looked for it but could not find it. Can you please give the context of “bari jild 13 page 35″?

    Also can you clear one thing? Are you questioning the name Jamat-ul-Muslimeen OR the current group named as Jamat-ul-Muslimeen OR the concept that Jamat-ul-Muslimeen can not be a group without power?

    • ahlulhadees says :

      walikum asalam wrwb,

      dear brother please take one hadeeth and we will go through with it that what understanding islaaf took from it, you are mentioning more ahadeeth which will make the things complex, we can go through one by one , because word jamaat doest have one meaning in every hadeeth for example word salaah everybody knows it means prayer (namaz) but in hadeeth it is mentioned Allah has divided salaah between him and his slave …. in this hadeeth word salaah means surah fatiha… so please mentioned one hadeeth in which jamatul muslimeen is mentioned and provide one reference from islaaf who took the understanding from that hadeeth like there will be a group/sect called(labled as) jamatul muslimeen and they will only be upon haq .

      secondly i amtrying to clerify general understanding of islaaf from jamaatul muslimeen.

      what is your opinion regarding current jamatul muslimeen groups ? the reason they r the only one who took this understanding????

  13. Badar Maqsood says :

    Assalam-o-Alaikum,
    😦 yeh understanding/confusions current Jamat-ul-Muslimeen aur current Ahl-e-Hadees k beech bethnay say aai hai!!!

  14. Badar Maqsood says :

    Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    Ok lets discuss the Hadess of Hazrat Huzaifa.

    My understanding is one ought to be Muslim and nothing else. As for Jamat there should be one Jamat and all of us should stick to that.

    As far as understanding is concerned, well both Jamat-ul-Muslimenee and Ahl-e-Hadess have their own understanding. I miss to understand them both completely. I agree to some points on both sides. For me its quite difficult to differentiate who is right and who is wrong. So my current understanding is that I should stick to Manhuj i.e. Quran and Sunnah and thats it.

    As far as current Jamat-ul-Muslimeen is concerned, I have not joined them inspite of the fact that I know them for the last 10+ years and the reason is the same discussion that I have having with you. But I cannot deny them as well because they are labeled as thinking of other people as wrong but same goes for Ahl-e-Hadis. They too have the same concepts. they claim to be that 73rd sect too, being Jamat as well.

    The only difference is Jamat-ul-Muslimeen emphasizes on the name.

    • ahlulhadees says :

      walikum asalam wrwb,

      ok now its clear, i have read literature of jamatul muslimeen and the main flaw i have found is the manhuj/understanding/feham thier understanding is not according to our islaaf, this is one of the major issue because of that we as a ummah are divided, even a person who ask something other than Allh will give you reference from quran and ahadeeth every sect give this only thing that distinguish correct view is how sahaba understood it how khairun quroon understood this issue and muhadaseen and there are many evidence that leasds us to follow our islaaf way like sabilil momineen mentioned in quran to be upon it.

      even we want to be united as well with one ameer but as we know this is not the case so it doesn’t mean i make my own jamat and becomes the ameer, once imam ahmed bin hanble asked his student do u know what does Ameer means mentioned in a hadeeth, it mean a person upon whom all the muslims agreed upon (ijmah) and everyone says that yes he is imaam (khalifah) …. na ke chand log uth ke khilafat ka dawah ker dien jesa ke kuch na samjhon ne haal hi main aisa kia aur kaaba per qabza ki koshish ki, we knows what happend with them after that.

      so if u r on manhaj of salaf then you are ahlul hadeeth i think brother the thing that makes u confuse is the current division between ahlulhadeeth then we dont even relate ourself either of the tanzeem weather it be sajid mir group or jamat dawah or gurabah etcc…. but rather we are on the manhaj of ahlulhadeeth , and these lables are nothing more then to distiguish ourselves from ahlul bidah even i can show u fatawah from ulama e ahlulhadeeth they say if these lables are been used to divid the ummah like it is happening now a days jamiat ahl e hadeeth brother dont like JD and they dont like them etc.
      this is wrong and these lables were adopted by our islaaf and no onefrom them differed on this issue so its ijmah,

      for example, word ansaar and muhajir Allah used these names in Quran and sahaba used it but when once they had conflict and few person start calling thier parties o ansaar help us and muhajiroon start calling o muhajiroon help us (to fight with ansaar) when rasoolullah salalahu wasalam heard it he said this is the call of Jaahliya, so it depends on in what context u r using a lable anyhow
      regarding the hadeeth as long as i know muhadaseen took it as khilafahat and khalifa Allahualam

      • Badar Maqsood says :

        Assalam-o-Alaikum,

        Ok. How do you relate the word “Jamat” in the Hadees of Hazrat Huzifa bin Yaman with the word “Jamat” in the Hadess of 73 sects?

  15. ahlulhadees says :

    walikum asalam wrwb,
    regarding 73 sects hadith there are two turq of this hadeeth one says jamaah and otherne explain what jamaat mean yaani “maa ana alihi wa ashabi alyoum” aaj jis per main aur mery sahaba hain wo sect haq per hoga isi hadeeth ki sharaah main kafi aqwal paye jaty hain salaf k almost sab ka matlab yehi banta hai jis ko hadeeth ne hi explain ker dia hai..

    at the moment i am not on my pc once i get there will inshallah give references and explain the understanding of this hadeeth

    crux is there will b a group upon haq all the times (where as those ahadeeth where jamatul muslimeen and imam is mentioned says if u dont find any jamaah then leave all aside even if u have to eat leaves , this shows its 2 different things, this jamaatul muslimeen(khilafah) may not exsist and may exsist if this exsist stick with it ) this jamaah 73 sects will exist all the time and there will b no specific name of this jamaah but there will be charectristics (who will follow the Prophet PBUH and his companions) anybody with these charectristics will b the jamaah even one sahabi said (if i am not forgetting) if u r alone on haq u r jamaat
    and jamhoor muhadaseen like imam bukhari,muslim,tirmdhi,ahmed bin hunble etcc..have said this jamaah is ahlulhadeeth imam ahmed said if this jamaah is not ahlulhadeeth then i dont know who else is.

    • ahlulhadees says :

      Imaam Bukhaari
      Imaam Bukhaari said concerning the victorious group, “ie they are the Ahluladeeth.”
      Masalah al-Ihtijaaj Baa ash-Shaafi’ee Lil-Khateeb (pg.47), The chain is authentic, al-Hujjah Fee Bayaan al-Muhajjah(1/246)

      حدیث نبوی لاتزال طائفۃ الخ کی تفسیر میں امام بخاری سے روایت ہے انہوں نے کہا کہ میں نے علی بن مدینی کو فرماتے ہوئے سنا ہے کہ ” وہ گروہ احل الحدیث ہیں” (ترمذی، فتح الباری 13/294)

      Imaam Muslim
      Imaam Muslim said, “We have explained the madhab of Ahlul Hadeeth and its people.”
      Saheeh Muslim, al-Muqadimah (pg.6) before the first chapter,
      another edition (1/5)

      Imaam Muslim said concerning, Ayoob as-Sakhtiyaanee, Ibn A’un, Maalik ibn Anas,Shu’bah bin al-Hajjaaj, Yahyaa ibn Sa’eed al-Qattaan, Abdur-Rahman ibn Mahdee and those who came after them as, “They are the Ahlul Hadeeth.”
      Saheeh Muslim, al-Muqadimah (pg.22) Chapter the correct deduction of al-MAanAan,another edition (1/26), another edition (1/23)

      Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal
      Imaam Ahmad bin Hanbal was asked concerning the victorious group, he replied, “If the victorious group are not the Ashaabul Hadeeth then I do not
      know who are. (Ma’arifah Uloom al-Hadeeth of Haakim (pg.2 no.3) the chain is
      good and Ibn Hajr authenticated it in Fath ul-Baari (13/293) under hadeeth
      (no.7311)

      Imaam Nasaa’ee
      Imaam Nasaa’ee said, “and there is benefit for the people of Islaam and from them are the Ahlul Hadeeth the one with knowledge, fiqh and Quraan.”
      Sunan Nasaa’ee (7/135 no 4147),at-Ta’aleeqaat as-Salafiyyah (no.4152)

      امام علامہ البانی رحمہ اللہ علیہ مسکراتے ہوئے ایک سوال کا جواب دیا اور فرمایا” الحمد اللہ میں سلفی اور اہلحدیث ہوں اور یہ کہ جس شخص کا منہج سلفیت نہیں وہ حق سے منحرف ہے” (بحوالہ ماہنامہ سبیل المومنین حیدرآباد اکتوبر 2002ء)

      aur sh albani ne ye bat current Jamatul Muslimeens ke radd main kahi thi for details see links below sh albani’s fatwah regarding Jamatul Muslimeen around the word including Masood bsc’s jamaat.

      1. http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL628/2686186/5366129/120454337.jpg
      2. http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL628/2686186/5366129/120454343.jpg
      3. http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL628/2686186/5366129/120454346.jpg
      4. http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL628/2686186/5366129/120454350.jpg

      If a person calls himself a Salafi/AhlulHadeeth to express his gratitude for having been guided to this way, or to clearly distinguish himself from innovation, then this is OK and is allowed in Islam. But if he says it only for the purpose of praising himself, then this is not allowed, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “… therefore justify not yourselves…” [al-Najm 53:32 – Yusuf ‘Ali’s translation]. Similarly, it is not allowed if it is said in a spirit of tribalism or sectarianism, because such attitudes are forbidden, as is clear from the following story: Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah said: “A man from the Muhaajireen shoved a man from the Ansaar from behind, so each man’s people gathered around him, saying ‘O Muhaajireen (come and help)!’ or ‘O Ansaar (come and help)!’ News of this reached the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he said, ‘Stop this, for it is repulsive.’ Then he said, ‘What is this call of the people of jaahiliyyah? What is this call of the people of jaahiliyyah?’” (Reported by Imaam Ahmad, 14105; the hadeeth is also to be found in al-Saheehayn). The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) called it the call of the people of jaahiliyyah and described it as repulsive, even though the words “Ansaari” and “Muhaajiri” are Islamic words, the first referring to those who supported Allaah and His Messenger, and the second referring to those who left the land of kufr and migrated to Allaah and His Messenger. Why were they described in this manner? Because in this instance, the words were not used in a permissible fashion; the usage was a sectarian and political one that could have led to fighting between the two groups. The same applies to the word “Salafi/AhlulHadeeth/Ahlsunnah” etc.

      • Badar Maqsood says :

        Assalam-o-Alaikum,

        There are some questions after reading your post.

        1. How do you say that the word “Jammat” has different meanings in the two Ahaadess? Even the second turq simply says the followers of Path of Prophet and Sahaba.
        2. Do you feel that the sayings of Aaima for Ahlulhadees being on the right path apply to current Ahl-e-Hadees?
        3. Can you explain the term Ahlulhadess as mentioned by Aima and Muhadthen?

      • Badar Maqsood says :

        Assalam-o-Alaikum,

        Please add these 3 as well.

        4. As mentioned there always will be a Jamat, which Jamat is it now a days?

        5. Can it be a general group of Muslims or should it be a named one?
        6. Can Jamat be without a Lead (Ameer) irrespective of power?

  16. ahlulhadees says :

    Walikum Asalam wrwb,

    **
    1. How do you say that the word “Jammat” has different meanings in the two Ahaadess? Even the second turq simply says the followers of Path of Prophet and Sahaba.

    i did not say that Jamaat has different meaning in 73 sect ahadeeths what i meant was it has different meaning in 73 sect hadeeth and jamatul muslimeen hadeeth and why i said so because salaf/muhadatheen has mentioned jamatul muslimeen hadeeths as khilafat/khalifa and 73sect hadeeth as a group of people.

    **
    2.. Do you feel that the sayings of Aaima for Ahlulhadees being on the right path apply to current Ahl-e-Hadees?

    Yes i do,
    further explanation is coming into the next answers in’sha’Allah.

    **
    4. As mentioned there always will be a Jamat, which Jamat is it now a days?
    5. Can it be a general group of Muslims or should it be a named one?

    i think i have explained this already, i am quoting what i said previously

    “this jamaah 73 sects will exist all the time and there will b no specific name of this jamaah but there are charectristics (who will follow the Prophet PBUH and his companions) anybody with these charectristics is part of jamaah”

    because the victorious group is popular with different names
    Ahlusunnah Wal Jamaah
    Ahlul Hadeeth
    Ashabul Hadeeth
    Firqatun Naajia
    Taiefatu Mansoora
    Ahlul Athar
    Salafi
    etc…

    these all names looks different but have 1 common meaning.

    Name siraf sahi rakh lene se koie faraq nahi parta untill and unless you are upon the Sirat e Mustaqeem
    if Qadiyani says we are Muslim. it doesn’t mean they are muslim
    its the characteristics that makes you from the Firqatun Najia and those characteristics are mentioned in the hadeeth Ma Ana Alihi wa ashabi filyoum.

  17. ahlulhadees says :

    **
    3. Can you explain the term Ahlulhadess as mentioned by Aima and Muhadthen?

    یہ ایک عام غلط فہمی ہے کہ اھل الحدیث سے مراد صرف محدثین ہیں جبکہ حقیقت میں اھل الحدیث سے مراد محدثین (صحیح العقیدہ) اور حدیث پر عمل کرنے والے ان کے عوام دونوں مراد ہیں اس کی فی الحال دس دلیلیں پیش خدمت ہیں؛

    ٭1:- علمائے حق کا اجماع ہے کہ طائفہ منصورہ (فرقہ ناجیہ) سے مراد اہلحدیث ہیں جس کی تفصیل پہلے بیان کی جاچکی ہے تو کیا فرقہ ناجیہ صرف محدثین ہیں؟
    ہرگز نہیں یہ بالکل خلاف عقل اور خلاف حقیقت ہے، طائفہ منصورہ اھل الحدیث سے مراد محدثین اور ان کے عوام دونوں ہیں۔

    ٭2:- امام اہلسنت امام احمد بن حنبل رحمہ اللہ نے فرمایا”صاحب الحدیث عندنا من یستعمل الحدیث” ہمارے نزدیک اہلحدیث وہ ہے جو حدیث پر عمل کرتا ہے۔
    (مناقب الامام احمد بن حنبل لابن الجوزی ص۲۰۹ و سندہ صحیح)

    ٭3:- شیخ الاسلام امام ابن تیمیہ رحمہ اللہ فرماتے ہیں کہ ہم اہلحدیث کا یہ مطلب نہیں لیتے کہ اس سے مراد صرف وہی لوگ ہیں نہوں نے حدیث سنی، لکھی یا روایت کی ہے بلکہ اس سے ہم یہ مراد لیتے ہیں کہ ہر آدمی جو اس کے حفظ، معرفت اور فہم کا ظاہری اور باطنی لحاظ سے مستحق ہے اور ظاہری اور باطنی لحاظ سے اس کی اتباع کرتا ہے اور یہی معاملہ اہل قرآن کا ہے۔ (مجموع فتاویٰ ابن تیمیہ جلد ۴ ص ۹۵)

    ٭4:- امام ابن حبان رحمہ اللہ نے اہل حدیث کی یہ صفت بیان کی ہے”وہ حدیثیوں پر عمل کرتے ہیں، ان کا دفاع کرتے ہیں اور ان کے مخالفین کا قلع قمع کرتے ہیں”
    (صحیح ابن حبان، الاحسان : ۶۱۲۹)

    ٭5:- امام احمد بن سنان الواسطی رحمہ اللہ (المتوفی ۲۵۹ ھجری) نے فرمایا: دنیا میں کوئی ایسا بدعتی نہیں جو اہلحدیث سے بغض نہیں رکھتا (معرفة علوم الحدیث للحاکم ص۴ وسندہ صحیح)۔
    یہ بات عام لوگوں کو بھی معلوم ہے کہ صحیح العقیدہ محدثین اور ان کے عوام سے اہل بدعت بہت بغض رکھتے ہیں۔

    ٭6:- قرآن مجید سے ثابت ہے کہ قیامت کے دن لوگوں کو ان کے امام کیساتھ پکارا جائے گا (بنی اسرائیل:۷۱) اس کی تشریح میں امام ابن کثیر رحمہ اللہ نے بعض سلف سے نقل کیا ہے کہ یہ آیت اہلحدیث کی سب سے بڑی فضیلت ہے کیونکہ ان کے امام نبی صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم ہيں (تفسیر ابن کثیر ۱۶۴/۴)۔
    کیا صرف محدثین کے امام نبی صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم ہیں؟ نہیں بلکہ اہلحدیث سے مراد محدثین اور ان کے عوام دونوں ہیں

    ٭7:- امام ابن قیم نے اپنے مشہور قصیدے نونیہ میں فرمایا: ” اے اہل حدیث سے بغض رکھنے والے اور گالیاں دینے والے تجھے شیطان سے دوستی قائم کرنے کی بشارت ہو”
    (الکافیہ الشافیہ ص ۱۹۹)

    ٭8:- امام جلال الدین سیوطی نے بنی اسرائیل:۷۱ کی تفسیر میں نقل فرمایا: “اہل حدیث کے لیئے اس سے زیادہ فضیلت والی کوئی اور بات نہیں کیونکہ نبی صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم کے سوا ان کا کوئی امام نہیں۔ (تدریب الراوی جلد۲ ص ۱۲۶)۔
    یہاں بھی اہلحدیث سے مراد محدثین اور ان کے عوام دونوں ہیں۔

    ٭9:- ابو منصور عبدالقاہر بن طاہر البغدادی (المتوفی ۴۲۹ ھجری) نے ملک شام وغیرہ کی سرحدوں پر رہنے والے مسلمانوں کے بارے میں کہا: وہ سب اہلسنت میں سے اہلحدیث کے مذہب پر تھے۔ (اصول دین ص ۳۱۷)۔

    یہ کسی دلیل سے ثابت نہیں کہ صرف محدثین ہی مذکورہ سرحدی علاقوں میں رہتے تھے اور وہاں ان کے عوام موجود نہیں تھے لہذا اس حوالے سے بھی ثابت ہوا کہ محدثین کے عوام بھی اہل حدیث ہیں۔

    ٭10:- ابو عبداللہ محمد بن احمد بن البناء المقدسی البشاری (متوفی ۳۸۰ ھجری) نے اپنے دور کے اہل سندھ کے بارے میں لکھا
    ۔”مذاھبھم أکثرھم أصحاب حدیث ورأیت القاضي أبا محمد المنصوري داودیًّا إماماً في مذھبھ ولھ تدریس و تصانیف، قدصنّف کتباً عدّة حسنةً”۔
    ان سندھیوں کے مذاہب میں اکثر اہلحدیث ہیں اور میں نے قاضی ابو محمد المنصوری کو دیکھا، وہ داؤد ظاہری کے مسلک پر اپنے مذہب (اہل ظاہر) کے امام تھے، وہ تدریس بھی کرتے ہیں اور کتابیں بھی لکھتے ہیں، انہوں نے بہت سی اچھی کتابیں لکھی ہیں۔
    (احسن التقاسیم فی معرفة الاقالیم ص ۳۶۳)

    بشاری نے سندھیوں کی اکثریت کو اہلحدیث قرار دے کر ثابت کر دیا کہ محدثین کی طرح صحیح العقیدہ عوام بھی اہلحدیث ہیں نیز (1867 میں) فرقہ دیوبند کی پیدائش سے سینکڑوں سال پہلے۳۸۰ ھجری میں سندھ میں اہلحدیث اکثریت میں تھے۔

  18. ahlulhadees says :

    6. Can Jamat be without a Lead (Ameer) irrespective of power?

    YES, Like Now a Days

    AllahuAlam

    • Badar Maqsood says :

      1. Yes I too was referring to the difference in two Ahaadees. Can you please elaborate as to where is it mentioned (in 73 sects Hadees), that it will be a group of general people and not a formal Jamat? Or where is it mentioned that it is not for Khilafat or a Jamat without Government? Specifically when both the Ahaadees are talking about sects (Firqaas) and Jamat then how do you say they are different?

      2. So if current Ahl-e-Hadees are on the right path then
      i. Which one is right?
      ii. As you mentioned making sects is not right, so how do you see the current sects in Ahl-e-Hadees?
      iii. If any one does not accept what Ahl-e-Hadees have, Is he misguided?

      3. ““this jamaah 73 sects will exist all the time and there will b no specific name of this jamaah”
      Can you please give reference for this? I am asking this because Jamat-ul-Muslimeen relate the two Ahaadees, they say one Hadess says there will be 73 sects out of which one is Jamat rest are just sects and the other Hadeess says Stick to Jamat and stay away from Sects. So they take Jamat in both Ahaadees as one.

      4. I agree that only name does not serve the purpose and it applies not only to Muslim but Ahl-e-Hadeees, Ahl-e-Quran, Ahl-e-Sunah etc as well. So claiming to be Firqa-e-Nijiah is one thing and being it, is another. So why do we need to be called Ahl-e-Hadees anyway? Isnt being Muslim enough?

      5. The quotes mentioned are general and referring to people who follow Hadees, They do not refer to any specific group. They can apply to current Jamat-ul-Muslimeen as well or any other Jamat that follows Hadess not necessarily Ahl-e-Hadees. How can you relate these sayings with current Ahl-e-Hadees? Because they are named as Ahl-e-Hadees?

      6. Jamat without an Ameer, you are saying it can be as it is these days. Can you provide any reference for it that it can be?

      • ahlulhadees says :

        1. i have explained it already , because muhadiseen took jamatul muslimeen as khilafat etc. and 73sect as people who follow quran o sunnah .. pls read my previous references
        thats why i was saying take one hadeeth and then see what salaf understood it then another then another , which of the salaf did not take huzaifa rz’s as other than khilafah? and which of the salaf said 73 sect is about khilafah?

        2. i have explained it many times may be i could’t explained it properly🙂
        whoever follows the sunnah and companions he is on haq and part of that jamaah

        3. if they takes as one thats thier problem, prove it from salaf.

        4.we should use to differnciate that we r not those muslims who says mirza maloon is nabi we r not those muslims who do bidaat when we say ahlulhadeeth what we meant have explained it already

        5. it can never b apply on jamatul muslimeen bcoz they r not of salaf’s manhaj this name issue is in front of u salaf used these names and they say they were bidati by using this there are many other issues.

        6. refer to ahadees where it says when u dont find a khalifa then what to do chk my reference of fathul bari igave earlier in in hafiz ibn e hajar made this heading whenu dont find imaam/khalifa then what to do

  19. Badar Maqsood says :

    Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    1. I am not saying that it is about Khilafat. What I am asking is the term “who follow Quran and Sunnah” does not mean that it is not a Jamat. Even the people under Khalifah follow Quran and Sunnah. Question Is if it is specified anywhere that its a Jamat/Group of People without Government or without an Ameer?

    2. The 3 questions are very specific and need specific answers.

    3.🙂 Its not only their problem If the two Ahaadees are talking about same sects and same Jamat, then the meaning of sect changes. That’s why I am asking you to please differentiate both.

    4. When Khawarij were there, was there any differentiation by name created by muslims? At one side we say name does not serve the purpose and yet we want a name to differentiate us. Y

    5. Thats not answer to my question. As for Jamat-ul-Muslimeen they say same what you yourself said. When a name becomes a sect it is not legal. They too claim it to not have sectarian names but Muslim.

    6. “secondly in fathul bari jild 13 page 35 ibne hajar explains jamatul muslimeen means khilafaah and imaam means khalifa”, this is what you shared. It does not say anything about Jamat without Khalifah. Am I missing something? Also Jamat without Khailfah does not mean that their cant be a Jamat with an Ameer having no government. Does it?

  20. ahlulhadees says :

    walikum asalam wrwb,

    Q 1,6
    pls get fathul bari and read the reference ibn e hajar made heading i wrote earlier and after that under that heading he explained everything else .

    Q2. i. have explained many times if u keep asking a same question again and again what should i do ? who follows Quran o sunnah

    ii. refer to the book shared earlier by mansoor current deeni/siyasi jamaton ke bara main

    iii. ahlulhadeeth’s folllows Quran o Sunnah with the fehm of salaf whoever doest follow this answer is clear yes he is misguided

    3. explained many times already which of the salaf relate 73sec to khilafat?

    4. yes there were two siyasi sects
    i.shian e ali
    ii. shian e muawiah

    5. that was exectly the answer of your question🙂 i say again jamatul muslimeen is a gumraah sect and they r not on the manhuj of salaf if u dont know it doest mean they haven’t said so??? pls read thier poster apne bidati namon ka sabooot dijye and main target are ahlulhadeeth
    and for you information current division between ahlul hadeeth is siyasi division like the time of sahaba there were two parties but both were on ha

    • Badar Maqsood says :

      Assalam-o-Alaikum,

      1. Ok I will to do that to get clear.

      2.i. So whosoever will include Jamat-ul-Muslimeen as well if they follow Quran and Sunnah.
      ii. Ok i will do that and then will get back to you.
      iii. If the same thing is claimed by Jamat-ul-Muslimeen then they are accused of calling other people misguided including Ahl-e-Hadees. What can i say on it. You forbid them and say it by yourself.

      3. I asked you to differentiate both by Salaf but you have not. As for Khilafat is concerned as in those times Khalifah was present so everyone would refer to him. I am asking again and again that If Khalifah is not there what do Salaf say? To that there is no answer.

      4. So there was no Kwaarij were a religious sect not a political one. So these political groups do not cover that.

      5. You say two things
      i. We are Ahle-eHadis (extracted from Aqwaal).
      ii. We are Jamat.
      ii Who does not follow what Ahle-e-Hadis present is gumrah.

      Jamat-ul-Muslimenee say
      i. We are Muslim (extracted from Ayat or Hadees).
      ii. We are Jamat.
      iii. Who does not follow what Jamat-ul-Muslimeen present is gumrah.

      At the end both say we are right and everyone else is gumrah.

      6. I am not asking you the same question again and again just for the sake of argument. I am asking it because I want to convey that Aima reffered to Khalipah because there was one and that represented the Focal point of Ummah. I am asking what do they say if there is no Kahlifah? Wont there be any orgainzational structure amongst Ummah? Wont there be any leader at all even thogu he does not have power?

      You have reffered me two books. Insha Allah i will go through them.

  21. ahlulhadees says :

    walikum asalam wrwb,
    this is what i was refering to before that if we dont go one by one it will be a mess, now let get back to the same point hadeeth of huzifa rz i have explained ibn e hajar said its khilafah niw like u said u have more references please provide those that which of the salaf understood that hadith otherthan khilafah once its get clear we go to other issues .

    regarding u said no answer didn’t i say ibn e hajar explained if no khalifa then what to do? then what does this means no answer🙂 (munazrana dialog)) khair np🙂

    regarding jamatul muslimeen masood bsc group(i am writing this to make itclear bcoz there r many other jamatul muslimeen with different ameer as well and u r influnced by this prticular one if i am not wrong🙂 )
    i have mentioned many times they r not on salaf’s manhuj they use masood bsc’s understanding not salaf’s because nowhere any of the salaf said only call urself muslim??? but they do , none of the salaf took these ahadeeth like he did and made their seperate jamaat called as jamatul muslimeen , nowhere salaf toook bayah (like they do) other than khilafah any how there are many many points but if we continue like this its gonna go long.

    so go one by one and time will tell who got salaf with them. :)JM or AH

    • Badar Maqsood says :

      Assalam-o-Alikum,

      I want to clear my confusions. I am not doing Manazara or anything of the sort. Ok lets get back to it.

      1. They referred to Khaleefah because Khaleefah was there. So whosoever asked it was said go stick to Khaleefah. Now there is no Khaleefah so I am asking what do they say about having no Khaleefah. This is what is calimed by Jamat-ul-Muslimeen that there was Khaleefah so everyone reffered him now there is no Khaleefah but we can not remain disorganized. Need to organize.

      2. The term Ahl-e-Hadees was being used by Aima even when there ware no groups of Ahl-e-Hadees that are now there. That is what I am asking how do you relate these with the term Aima used at that time. Also it is said the group was first called Ahl-e-Sunah-wal-Jamat, so this term Ahl-e-adess was there even then. Meaning it was a general term.

      I am not inspired by Jamat-ul-Muslimeen only I am inspired by Ahl-e-Hadees as well. If I would have been inspired by them only then I would have joined them. It has been 10+ years but I have not joined them as yet. If Ahl-e-Hadess in general are on the Munhaj of Salaf then what is the meaning of a group being called Salafi within Ahl-e-Hadees?

      • ahlulhadees says :

        Walikum Asalam wrwb,
        🙂

        1. First of all make one thing clear are you agreed here that this hadeeth NONE of the salaf/Muhadith took this hadeeth other than Khilafaah , then in’sha’Allah we can discuss,
        IF not then prove is required please.

        2. Term Ahlul Hadeeth i have explained it earlier and it clearly says what Muhadaseen meant by it and who comes under this Title but still you are asking this question i really can’t understand why?
        if you are talking about groups now ahlulhadeet have then there shouldn’t be any separate groups but there are now but this thing doesn’t make them out of ahlulhadeeth because whatever you says about the groups were made at the time of sahaba by making them if they were still on HAQ why can’t these currents? because like i said its not the NAME (like JM made it so important) its the characteristics that is important.

        AhluSunnah = Ahlul Hadeeth = Salafi etc.
        i have explained this already as well all these names have ONE meaning.
        like even in Pakistan you can see many ahlul hadeeth ulama says they are salafi for example
        in Gujranwala biggest ahlul hadeeth masjid;s imam is Asad Mehmood Salafi
        rana shamshad salafi
        iqbal salafi

        these are few names of ahlul hadeeth ulama in pakistan
        and in arab or other countries all salafies are agreed upone sh albani and i have mentioned already he says he is salafi and ahlul hadeeth.

  22. Badar Maqsood says :

    Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    1, Yes Salaf referred it to Khailfa. You are not getting my point. See if Raja Perviaz Ashraf is Khaleefah today and someone asks what should I do you would say go stick to Khaleefa. Obviously because there is one. This is what I am asking about if there were not a Khaleefah then what?

    2.
    i 1. if you are talking about groups now ahlulhadeet have then there shouldn’t be any separate groups but there are now (there shouldn’t be any)
    a. If they are ok then why shouldnt be there these groups?
    ii. whatever you says about the groups were made at the time of sahaba ()
    a. Were they religious groups?

  23. ahlulhadees says :

    Walikum Asalam wrwb,

    1. bhai jaan hosla , i understood your question i was just making one point clear and i did say once its clear we can discuss further points🙂
    secondly you previously said “This is what is calimed by Jamat-ul-Muslimeen that there was Khaleefah so everyone reffered him now there is no Khaleefah but we can not remain disorganized. Need to organize.” so whoever claims something he has to bring the prove this is asool.
    you have spent 10+ years you would have asked them what is the daleel you made this jamaah and this understanding to make a separate jamaah which of the salaf/Muhadith gave you this understanding????

    and if they were very keen to get the ummah togather then does it mean few majhool (in a sense who are not recognized as ahlul ilm between the ulama) makes a jamaah and one of them become ameer ? and whoever is not part of this jamaah he is not part of muslimeen ????

    or should it be done like all ahlul ilm sit togather and appoint one? (this is the way of salaf)

    Now what Muhadiseen says if there is no Jamaah what to do :

    سیدنا عبداللہ بن مسعود رضی اللہ عنہ کا قول ہے:
    الجماعۃ ماوافق الحق وان کنت وحدک (راوہ اللالکائی)
    جماعت وہ ہے جو حق کے موافق ہو اگرچہ تم اکیلے ہی کیوں نہ ہو۔

    مام شافعی رحمہ اللہ فرماتے ہیں:
    ان الجماعۃ اذالم تکن موجودۃ یعنی مجتمعۃ فی مکان واحد فیکون لذوم جماعتھم ھو القول بما تقول بہ جماۃ المسلمین عن الکتاب والسنۃ والا عتقاد الصحیح (الرسالہ)
    جب جماعت موجود نہ ہو یعنی ایک جگہ مجتمع نہ ہو تو پھر جماعت سے وابستگی کا مطلب یہ ہوگا کہ مسلمین کی جماعت کتاب و سنت اور صحیح عقیدہ کے بارے میں جو کچھ کہتی ہے وہی کہنا۔

    عبداللہ بن عبدالحمدالاثری الوجیز میں لکھتے ہیں:
    (جماعۃ المسلمین)
    ھم سلف ھذ ہ الامۃ من الصحابۃ والتابعین و من تمعھم باحسان الی یوم الدین الذین اجتمعوا علی الکتاب والسنۃ و ساروا علی ما کان علیہ رسول اللہ ﷺ ظاھراً و باطنا و قد امر اللہ عبادہ المومنین و حثھم علی الجماعۃ والا ئتلاف والتعاون ونھاھم عن التفرقۃ والاختلاف والتناحر (المرعات باب الاعتصام)
    جماعت المسلمین سے مراد اس امت کے سلف ہیں، صحابہ کرام رضی اللہ عنہ ، تابعین اور قیامت تک انکے نقش قدم پر چلنے والے۔ یہ سب کتاب و سنت پر مجتمع ہو چکے ہیں اور نبی ﷺ کی ظاہری و باطنی سیرت کو اپنا چکے ہیں۔

    and i have explained it alreadey many times who ever is following Quran o Sunnah with the fehm of salaf alhamdulillah he is ahlulhadeeth and he is part of jamaah.

    2. what i meant by this was there shouldn’t be any conflict between the ahlulhaq but if the conflict comes and they becomes in parties it doesn’t mean that one of them has gone out of the mainstream ???? as long as their aqeedah is same.

    so i have explained the general ruling mentioned by the muhadiseen whoever follows it is part of jamaah in’sha’Allah.
    Allahualam

  24. Badar Maqsood says :

    Assalma-o-Alaikum,

    1.🙂 Well its not only their claim. You claim something as well so you have to prove it as well that it is about Khaleefah only. Secondly look at your quote “جماعت المسلمین سے مراد اس امت کے سلف ہیں، صحابہ کرام رضی اللہ عنہ ، تابعین اور قیامت تک انکے نقش قدم پر چلنے والے۔ یہ سب کتاب و سنت پر مجتمع ہو چکے ہیں اور نبی ﷺ کی ظاہری و باطنی سیرت کو اپنا چکے ہیں”

    is this the definition of Khilafat as you claimed that it refers to Khilafat only???

    Secondly if this is the condition “جب جماعت موجود نہ ہو یعنی ایک جگہ مجتمع نہ ہو تو پھر جماعت سے وابستگی کا مطلب یہ ہوگا کہ مسلمین کی جماعت کتاب و سنت اور صحیح عقیدہ کے بارے میں جو کچھ کہتی ہے وہی کہنا۔” then if they choose one of them as Ameer? Will it be right or wrong?

    2. You are saying it that they can and have become parties, but is there any proof of Sahabah being divided on religious basis and forming parties/groups/Jamats? When did Sahabah called them selves being Ahl-e-Hadess as Jamat? As far as i know they used the term to say to people that to be on the right path you have
    i. to follow Hadess as well as Quran (to refute Khawarij)
    ii. Have to look for Ahaadees aginast meer Raaey

  25. ahlulhadees says :

    Walikum Asalam wrwb,

    you again have misunderstood it i have previously said may be you forgot this read again

    “because word jamaat doest have one meaning in every hadeeth for example word salaah everybody knows it means prayer (namaz) but in hadeeth it is mentioned Allah has divided salaah between him and his slave …. ”

    so when jamatul muslimeen is concern muhadaseen took it as Khilafah and if there is not khilafa what to do i have explained above.
    so to choose one ameer they have to follow the way of salaf like i have explained the saysing of imam ahmed who is ameer etc.. not like mansoor stands up and say ok now i am uniting the ummah and i am ameer come and do bayaah hurry up😛 and this ameer is not going to be a khalifa but ameer like itezami amoor and all the ahadeeth to listen and obey the ameer are regarding khalifa those ahadeeth would never ever apply on this ameer jesa ke JM are trying their best to stick khalifa ahadees on their self made ameer (not made by ijmah or ahlul ilm) but bunch of juhala who have different rules for others and different for themselves. so my question is still there what is the prove to make a NEW jAMAAT ???

    2. Sahaba did’t have ikhtilaaf in AQaied if you say current jamaat have difference between Aqaied .. haatu burhanakum?
    🙂

    and let say even if someone have difference in aqaid and still say he is ahlulhadeeth then i would say his claim is baatil because he is not fulfilling the characteristics being ahlulhadeeth.

    “”When did Sahabah called them selves being Ahl-e-Hadess as Jamat””
    Ager Rola Namon ka hi hai … Then please prove the Name Ameer ul Momineen … from Quran o Sunnah. and sahaba has used this name and this was not known at the time of Rasoolullah (Salalahu alihe wasalam ) and JM again is going against the salaf as they have called their ameer as ameer ul momineen and (one side they cry when any other name comes) and now they call their ameer as Ameer ul Muslimeen. Subhan’Allah.
    and from your words it looks like when someone use anyother name other than muslim you believe its a firqah? same as JM says.
    if yes then i’ll explain rest if NO then what do you think what things makes someone a Firqah?

  26. Badar Maqsood says :

    Assalam-o-Alaikum,

    1. Well here the term is not Jamat but Jamat-ul-Muslimeen and as you said it reffers to Khhilafat only whereas this qout mentioned by your own self denies that. “so when jamatul muslimeen is concern muhadaseen took it as Khilafah and if there is not khilafa what to do i have explained above.” Is this the definition of Khilafah? ““جماعت المسلمین سے مراد اس امت کے سلف ہیں، صحابہ کرام رضی اللہ عنہ ، تابعین اور قیامت تک انکے نقش قدم پر چلنے والے۔ یہ سب کتاب و سنت پر مجتمع ہو چکے ہیں اور نبی ﷺ کی ظاہری و باطنی سیرت کو اپنا چکے ہیں””

    2. My Question was that in this condition
    “جب جماعت موجود نہ ہو یعنی ایک جگہ مجتمع نہ ہو تو پھر جماعت سے وابستگی کا مطلب یہ ہوگا کہ مسلمین کی جماعت کتاب و سنت اور صحیح عقیدہ کے بارے میں جو کچھ کہتی ہے وہی کہنا۔”

    If they get together choose one of them as Ameer, Will it be right or wrong? Even though that Ameer will not have governemtn. As for Juhala firstly I dont need to defend them as I want to clearfiy my concepts, secondly they are Juhala in your view.

    “his claim is baatil because he is not fulfilling the characteristics being ahlulhadeeth” this is what i was trying to convey. Just saying/calling one as Ahl-eHadees , Jamat-ul-Muslimeen does not make one, characteristics make one. So just showing words (names) in Hadees or Quote means nothing.

    “Ager Rola Namon ka hi hai ” rola naam ka nahi. Rola naam k saath group ka hai. Alag pehchan ka hai. Difference ka hai. If all Ahl-e-Hadees are same in their religious practices then why not at least they come together?

    • ahlulhadees says :

      1. please prove where i said its for khilafah only , but rather i have quoted my old quotation where i said have more than 1 meaning , yes i did ask you that are you agreed? does that mean what you agreed i must have to agree too? what i meant was whatever the meaning you are taking out of it need to be proved from the salaf,

      and please you are ignoring my this question again and again and again. please read my question main urdu main likhta hon in detail

      مصعود بی ایس سی صاحب اپنے رسالے” جماعت المسلمین کا پس منظر” میں لکھتے ہیں ۔ چند درد مند حضرات نے اہل حق کی اصلاح کے لیے 1385ھ میں جماعت المسلمین کی بنیاد ڈالی، میں پوچھتا ہوں جب جماعت المسلمین کی بنیاد1385ھ میں رکھی گئی تو کیا اس سے پہلے اس نام کی کوئی جماعت نہ تھی ؟ اگر کوئی جماعت نہ تھی تو وہ اہل حق کون تھے جن کی اصلاح کے لیے اس جماعت کی بنیاد رکھی گئی؟ اور کس جماعت سے وہ تعلق رکھتے تھے؟ کیا آج بھی وہ اہل حق ہیں یا نہیں؟ اگر آج بھی اہل حق ہیں تو وہ کون ہیں اور اگر آج ان میں سے کوئی اہل حق نہیں رہا، سب گمراہ ہوگئے تو جماعت المسلمین نے اچھی اصلاح کی کہ سارے اہل حق گمراہ ہوگئے ۔ اور اگر 1385ھ سے پہلے بھی جماعت المسلمین نام کی کوئی جماعت تھی تو پھر 1385ھ میں بنیاد ڈالنے کے کیا معنی؟ اگر مسعود صاحب یہ کہیں کہ ار جگہ تو یہ جماعت اس سے پہلے بھی تھی لیکن کراچی میں اس کی بنیاد 1385ھ میں رکھی گئی تو میں پوچھتا ہوں دوسری جگہ دنیا میں کہاں کہاں یہ جماعت تھی؟ کون کون اس کے امیر تھے؟ آج تک اس جماعت کے بڑے بڑے علماء کون کون ہوئے ہیں؟ انھوں نے کون کون سی کتابیں لکھی ہیں؟ جن پر جماعت المسلمین کا مرغوب ٹھپہ ایسے ہی ہو جیسے آج کل مسعود اور مرغوب صاحبان لگاتے ہیں۔

      محہر بانی کر کے اس کا جواب دہین کے جما عت بنای کیون؟ :

      اور اگر اس کا جواب نہین ہے تو پھر بدر بھای آپ کو کس طرح وہ غلط نہین لگتے؟

      what i have quoted from muhaditheen what should we do if we do not find any jamatul muslimeen was the answer of your question.

      2. yes it should be but according to ahadeeth it doesn’t look possible without a khilafaah.

      one side you say you don’t defend them and other side you don’t leave any chance but to defend them for example “secondly they are Juhala in your view.”🙂

      “Ager Rola Namon ka hi hai ” rola naam ka nahi. Rola naam k saath group ka hai. Alag pehchan ka hai. Difference ka hai. If all Ahl-e-Hadees are same in their religious practices then why not at least they come together?

      to bhai we say as well they should but not like JM has done but according to the way of salaf.

      • Badar Maqsood says :

        Assalam-o-Alaikum,

        Today is my last day in office so I may not be able to communicate (do Manazar as you say) with you😀 Insha Allah will resume soon.

  27. ahlulhadees says :

    Walikum Asalam wrwb ,

    GOOD LUCK Brother🙂 as i say? nahi as you are doing😛

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